[Video] Political Correctness Doesn't Censor, It Keeps Comedy Fresh

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papaya
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[Video] Political Correctness Doesn't Censor, It Keeps Comedy Fresh

Postby papaya » February 27th, 2016, 6:45 pm



thoughts?
I agree with this 100%, there are ways to be funny and being offensive to a group of people, be it people of a different race, sexuality, religion or gender, shouldn't be one of them. It's lowbrow comedy where the joke is the group in question, and joking about them only serves to further reinforce any stereotypes or negative opinions about the group.
There are ways to be funny without saying things that offend anyone. A good comedian can make any story or concept funny (even horrific ones!) with enough preparation and research. For example, I point you to the film Four Lions, about a bunch of inept 'terrorists'. The director put a lot of effort into researching and contacting people to make sure he wasn't stepping on any toes. The end result is funny without being offensive.
And please don't go "abloobloo but people get offended at anything these days" no, people get offended at blatantly racist, or sexist, or transphobic stuff. If someone calls you out on it, don't then take offense yourself and go "don't get so offended its only a joke!", take it as a prompt to maybe work on your jokes, because you shouldn't need to offend someone to be funny.

also, there's no such thing as a slippery slope.

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Re: [Video] Political Correctness Doesn't Censor, It Keeps Comedy Fresh

Postby ElectroYoshi » February 28th, 2016, 12:13 pm

You said not to be all "people get offended at anything these days", but I'm saying that anyway, because... well, in all honesty, yeah, they do.

Actual, real, legit quote from Jerry Seinfeld:

My daughter's 14. My wife says to her, 'Well, you know, in the next couple years, I think maybe you’re going to want to be hanging around the city more on the weekends, so you can see boys.' You know what my daughter says? She says, ‘That’s sexist.’


Sooooo it's sexist to suggest that a girl might be interested in going out to see boys? A teenage girl who is most likely pubescent no less?

If you want a more personal example, I hate rap music, and I once got accused of being racist because of that. What this guy completely (and quite honestly, very conveniently) ignored is that a) I can't stand Eminem either, b) there are plenty of black people who don't like rap, and c) there are plenty of white people who do.

Generally speaking, the issue with political correctness is not that people call others out on their racism, sexism, homophobia or whatever. It's that they point out discrimination in areas where it does not exist. They twist issues to be about women's rights or black rights when that's really not the core of the problem at all.

Why am I saying all this? Because I don't think comedians should have to go out of their way to minimize potential lynching. It's a good idea to make sure your gay joke or your Asian joke isn't going to offend anyone in those groups (Hell, I hear gay people making gay jokes all the time), but at the same time, a comedian shouldn't have to fear getting lynched because they said the word "Asian" or "gay" in their routine and "discrimination" was the very first thing to pop into a person's head.

Bottom line, if you're going to accuse someone of discriminating, understand what you're actually accusing them of.

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Re: [Video] Political Correctness Doesn't Censor, It Keeps Comedy Fresh

Postby papaya » February 28th, 2016, 3:15 pm

ElectroYoshi wrote:You said not to be all "people get offended at anything these days", but I'm saying that anyway, because... well, in all honesty, yeah, they do.

Actual, real, legit quote from Jerry Seinfeld:

My daughter's 14. My wife says to her, 'Well, you know, in the next couple years, I think maybe you’re going to want to be hanging around the city more on the weekends, so you can see boys.' You know what my daughter says? She says, ‘That’s sexist.’


Sooooo it's sexist to suggest that a girl might be interested in going out to see boys? A teenage girl who is most likely pubescent no less?


yes? absolutely? if your parents suggested that you might want to go somewhere only because you'd want to see girls, would you not be at least a little bit taken aback? There's arguments for and against it being legitimately sexist, but its still not something you should really be saying to anyone.
There's a lot to be said about the quote itself, too. Jerry says it in such a way that makes it sound bizarre and unusual, even if it really isnt. That little "you know what my daughter says?" makes it so that whatever she does say is supposed to be taken as weird. If it was the other way round:
My mum told me I might want to be going into the city more on weekends, and when I asked why, you know what she said? She said I would only want to so that I can "see boys"!

the effect is lost because you know the original quote, but you see how its perfectly reasonable that she was offended at that.

ElectroYoshi wrote:If you want a more personal example, I hate rap music, and I once got accused of being racist because of that. What this guy completely (and quite honestly, very conveniently) ignored is that a) I can't stand Eminem either, b) there are plenty of black people who don't like rap, and c) there are plenty of white people who do.


you're not racist for not liking rap music but there certainly are racist reasons for not liking rap music, especially because of the language used or the culture surrounding it. I'm not saying those are your reasons for not liking rap music, but there absolutely is reason to assume someone who doesn't like rap music could not like rap music for racist reasons.

ElectroYoshi wrote:Generally speaking, the issue with political correctness is not that people call others out on their racism, sexism, homophobia or whatever. It's that they point out discrimination in areas where it does not exist. They twist issues to be about women's rights or black rights when that's really not the core of the problem at all.

Why am I saying all this? Because I don't think comedians should have to go out of their way to minimize potential lynching. It's a good idea to make sure your gay joke or your Asian joke isn't going to offend anyone in those groups (Hell, I hear gay people making gay jokes all the time), but at the same time, a comedian shouldn't have to fear getting lynched because they said the word "Asian" or "gay" in their routine and "discrimination" was the very first thing to pop into a person's head.

Bottom line, if you're going to accuse someone of discriminating, understand what you're actually accusing them of.


if you watched the video, you'd understand that, especially in the world of comedy, calling someone racist, sexist, whatever is simply saying that what they said wasn't funny. The correct thing to do should be an opportunity for the accused to do some introspection, like "huh, maybe they're right, maybe I was a bit racist/sexist". After all, if you're a comedian and you're not being funny, you're out of a job.
The WRONG thing to do is to go "blimey, this is political correctness gone mad! Why should I have to not be racist/sexist/whatever". Whether or not YOU think it's racist DOESN'T MATTER, the audience is saying that THEY think it is. There is no strict definition for what is and isn't offensive, but if people are telling you it is, you probably shouldn't be saying it.

here is a quote from the video that you didn't watch:
But there’s some people who do feign outrage at this or they’re genuinely feeling like how dare you tell me what I can and cannot joke about. But I would say in most cases audiences are not telling them you can’t joke about this. What they’re saying is that wasn’t funny. And that’s a different thing. I think you can talk about any topic and I think you can make any topic funny. It depends on what your point is and where you’re coming from. Audiences always know. They always know. And if you have a sound point that you’re making and it’s well thought out and it’s well-crafted you can make me laugh at a thing that I think is tragic. You can make me laugh at a thing that I think is horrific. You can make me laugh at a thing that affects me personally. But if you’ve done your homework and you’ve gone about it the right way it will still be funny.

You CAN make funnies about offensive things IF you do it the right way. Someone calling you out on it means you've gone about it the wrong way, and you need to change. You shouldn't be going "but that wasn't offensive (because I, someone who wouldn't be the victim if that was offensive, didn't find it offensive)!", you should be asking yourself "why was that offensive, what did I do wrong?"

That really is the key thing here: people are deathly afraid of having to change. They'll stick their tongue out, pout and go "no, I'm not changing" before they'd consider the feelings of other people. It's like when someone calls you racist, the first response is to go "no im not". The ACTUAL first response should be "maybe I am; how can I change that?" There's gotta be a reason why you were called that, and if you can't identify it then don't assume there isn't a reason. People don't call out discrimination where there isn't any, EVER.

There was an incident in the discord which I'm loathed to bring up because the argument is sorted but it's a fine example, someone used the phrase "Triggers my OCD" when they themselves didn't have OCD. I, kinda brashly, asked them not to do that if they didn't have OCD, because it's kinda frustrating to hear someone use your condition as a joke. Their response was something along the lines of "this isn't tumblr" as if the concept of just accomodating people and respecting their requests is something that should only happen on sites like Tumblr, as if the incredibly basic idea of taking on board someones request to not say something is WRONG.

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Re: [Video] Political Correctness Doesn't Censor, It Keeps Comedy Fresh

Postby Rattle » February 28th, 2016, 6:17 pm

papaya wrote:Someone calling you out on it means you've gone about it the wrong way, and you need to change.

you lost me at this point

this "customer is always right" bullshit is something that needs to stop, particularly in the field of entertainment. If I make a joke and one out of one-thousand people tells me its not funny and i need to change it, am I supposed to bow to them? no, they should either find a way to ignore that one particular joke, or stop listening to my jokes if its that much of an issue to them.

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Re: [Video] Political Correctness Doesn't Censor, It Keeps Comedy Fresh

Postby papaya » February 28th, 2016, 6:33 pm

Rattle wrote:
papaya wrote:Someone calling you out on it means you've gone about it the wrong way, and you need to change.

you lost me at this point

this "customer is always right" bullshit is something that needs to stop, particularly in the field of entertainment. If I make a joke and one out of one-thousand people tells me its not funny and i need to change it, am I supposed to bow to them? no, they should either find a way to ignore that one particular joke, or stop listening to my jokes if its that much of an issue to them.


obviously if only one out of one thousand people complain you're in the right to ignore them. But in smaller communities like this one, where theres only a handful of active people, or if more than one person is calling you out on it, you should be listening to them.

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Re: [Video] Political Correctness Doesn't Censor, It Keeps Comedy Fresh

Postby Rattle » February 28th, 2016, 7:47 pm

papaya wrote:
Rattle wrote:
papaya wrote:Someone calling you out on it means you've gone about it the wrong way, and you need to change.

you lost me at this point

this "customer is always right" bullshit is something that needs to stop, particularly in the field of entertainment. If I make a joke and one out of one-thousand people tells me its not funny and i need to change it, am I supposed to bow to them? no, they should either find a way to ignore that one particular joke, or stop listening to my jokes if its that much of an issue to them.


obviously if only one out of one thousand people complain you're in the right to ignore them. But in smaller communities like this one, where theres only a handful of active people, or if more than one person is calling you out on it, you should be listening to them.

I see where you're coming from but I disagree completely. nobody should feel obligated to regulate expression or interaction just because it isn't to their taste. You can be a critic, sure, but don't feel like you need to put an end to someone's saying something just because you're in earshot and you don't like it. just get along with your day; it makes it easier for everyone.

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Re: [Video] Political Correctness Doesn't Censor, It Keeps Comedy Fresh

Postby papaya » February 28th, 2016, 8:28 pm

but again, this isn't about someone hearing someone make a racist joke in passing and stopping them and going "oi!", this is more about the backlash people receive from making a joke TO the person who ends up getting offended and wondering why they're being called out on it

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Re: [Video] Political Correctness Doesn't Censor, It Keeps Comedy Fresh

Postby Phantomboy » February 29th, 2016, 3:12 am

I am honestly fully on board with the video, especially the sentiment of; "You are in your rights to say whatever you want to say, they're within their rights to react however they're going to react" As, censoring is a generally pretty bad thing-- but if you are, in an atmosphere which doesn't support xyz, or whatever social pressure may be at play, you are free to act as you will. But, be aware there are consequences. Laughter and humour are healing agents, they can do a lot of good, especially in uncomfortable and touchy subjects.. but we need to be aware what is legitimate aid and what is lazy jabs poking at archetypes.

ElectroYoshi wrote:Why am I saying all this? Because I don't think comedians should have to go out of their way to minimize potential lynching. It's a good idea to make sure your gay joke or your Asian joke isn't going to offend anyone in those groups (Hell, I hear gay people making gay jokes all the time), but at the same time, a comedian shouldn't have to fear getting lynched because they said the word "Asian" or "gay" in their routine and "discrimination" was the very first thing to pop into a person's head.


Also, Electro~! I am not ragging on your post nor saying that I hold you at fault for anything but this is something that bothers me. In the interest of not treading on unfamiliar ground, I am going to dig into myself more than I usually do. So, I am gay-- there, have a random useless fact about me. And, something that bothers me, is when I see members of a social group, let's say homosexual, reinforcing stereotypes not because they legitimately feel they fit into them, but for the purpose of a joke. If someone legitimately feels they fit a stereotype of XYZ group, that's perfectly fine! Let them live how they want. I really don't mind, it just bugs me when I see people saying "Yup, us gay people really are like that~!" It's just lazy, and toxic and just justifies in the minds of those they are talking with that these are A-Okay jokes to be making. When in reality they may, or may not be hurtful or counter-productive to removing the small boxes we've placed various groups into. But, I digress..

Ultimately, I don't believe that we should go on a purge of "Offensive comedians" or that we should bite off the head of anyone who makes an off-kilter joke. What we should be doing is expecting more from our sources of humour. If you happen to see something that is only deemed funny because it is lazily rehashing our expectation of that characters archetype, maybe you should speak up about it. And we should stop accusing anyone who speaks about offensiveness or discrimination of being crazy justice-warriors, who are just taking political correctness too far.. Let's get over lazy stereotyping, listen to what a person has said and think of whether we agree or disagree with it, labels and archetypes aside.
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Re: [Video] Political Correctness Doesn't Censor, It Keeps Comedy Fresh

Postby Miniike » February 29th, 2016, 9:26 am

If you're a comedian complaining about political correctness, it's more then likely you just aren't very funny.

Take the ever-debated "rape joke." Daniel Tosh making fun of rape victims isn't funny. George Carlin making fun of rape apologists is.

A lack of political correctness, in comedy anyway, encourages people to take the easy way out and lazily exploit taboos. Here's the thing about taboos: they CHANGE. People have not gotten "more sensitive" or "more politically correct" in the past few decades, the acceptable targets have just switched places.

Thirty years ago, making fun of gays would be considered more acceptable then making fun of Donald Trump (assuming he went back in time and ran for president). In fact, someone as conservative and "NATIONALIST CAPITALISM, F*CK YEAH" as him would probably be a hero. It was okay to make fun of gays because no one cared about what gay people thought.

Fast forward to 2016. Decent people treat gays with respect, and Donald Trump is the biggest punchline in recent memory, because nobody cares about what he thinks. By exploiting taboos, you instantly date your comedy. By trying to be empathetic, especially towards progressive issues, you work to ensure your comedy stays relevant.

The irony is, even someone as blunt and famously against shrouded language as George Carlin knew the value of the acceptable target. Unless your a rapist yourself, you probably have no reservations mocking them. Unless rape becomes acceptable in future generations (and considering the nature of "progressive" politics is that they're always moving forward, that seems unlikely), George's whining will always be funny.

Should this type of thing be regulated by law? No. Is a comedian allowed to say whatever they like? Yes. Are they obligated to change themselves for the better? No. Does their comedy suck? Most likely.

>btw didn't watch da vidya so if any of this is redundant sorry son lel
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Re: [Video] Political Correctness Doesn't Censor, It Keeps Comedy Fresh

Postby Phantomboy » February 29th, 2016, 12:51 pm

Miniike wrote:>btw didn't watch da vidya so if any of this is redundant sorry son lel


That is all roughly touched on in the video, but I think you phrased it really really well. I very much agree with your view of taboo culture and how a lot of comedy plays off of it. Now, my personal feelings are always pushing me towards offending the least amount of people as possible and not have a "victim" of a joke off mine. However, I would be lying if I said I don't see the cultural worth or draw to hitting at things that upset us.. I, myself, am just too passive to regularly tread into that form of humour--
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Re: [Video] Political Correctness Doesn't Censor, It Keeps Comedy Fresh

Postby ElectroYoshi » March 1st, 2016, 2:34 pm

Phantomboy wrote:
Also, Electro~! I am not ragging on your post nor saying that I hold you at fault for anything but this is something that bothers me. In the interest of not treading on unfamiliar ground, I am going to dig into myself more than I usually do. So, I am gay-- there, have a random useless fact about me. And, something that bothers me, is when I see members of a social group, let's say homosexual, reinforcing stereotypes not because they legitimately feel they fit into them, but for the purpose of a joke. If someone legitimately feels they fit a stereotype of XYZ group, that's perfectly fine! Let them live how they want. I really don't mind, it just bugs me when I see people saying "Yup, us gay people really are like that~!" It's just lazy, and toxic and just justifies in the minds of those they are talking with that these are A-Okay jokes to be making. When in reality they may, or may not be hurtful or counter-productive to removing the small boxes we've placed various groups into. But, I digress..


I agree that comedians should have tact when joking about heavy topics. I mean, mocking rape victims isn't funny, for obvious reasons.

But the thing is, you can only run so far with that before it starts to become limiting. One thing comedians sometimes do in the name of black comedy is take an issue and completely detach it from what you'd expect. For instance, here's a joke I saw online a few years ago:

Guy 1: I got kidnapped a couple of years back.
Guy 2: Wait, WHAT?!? ARE YOU OK?!?!?
Guy 1: Yeah, it actually only lasted a few minutes.
Guy 2: ...Really? Why?
Guy 1: Well, for starters, the guy put me in his passenger seat, where I was in plain sight...
Guy 2: Oh...
Guy 1: And his car was a piece of crap, so it made a lot of noise that attracted a ton of attention.
Guy 2: Oh. Subtle.
Guy 1: And if you're gonna bind and gag someone, you should probably use something stronger than scotch tape...
Guy 2: .....


WAIT! DON'T FLAME ME! I SWEAR I'M GOING SOMEWHERE WITH THIS!
This isn't the sort of thing I'd label "offensive", mainly because of how it's written. The joke isn't that this guy tried to kidnap someone. It's that he very obviously had no idea what he was doing. In other words, it's mocking the perpetrator and not the victim. On top of that, this isn't the kind of idiocy you'd expect from someone attempting something like this, so it's over the top enough to not be very relatable.

I understand that people shouldn't just joke about whatever they want, but I hate how people take offense without knowing what the punch line is. Is the comedian making fun of someone for being discriminated against, or are they making fun of someone who discriminates against others? Before you attack someone for saying something offensive, you need to know what the answer to this question is.

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Re: [Video] Political Correctness Doesn't Censor, It Keeps Comedy Fresh

Postby papaya » March 1st, 2016, 6:18 pm

ElectroYoshi wrote:I understand that people shouldn't just joke about whatever they want, but I hate how people take offense without knowing what the punch line is. Is the comedian making fun of someone for being discriminated against, or are they making fun of someone who discriminates against others? Before you attack someone for saying something offensive, you need to know what the answer to this question is.


miniike summed it up pretty well with this line
Miniike wrote:Take the ever-debated "rape joke." Daniel Tosh making fun of rape victims isn't funny. George Carlin making fun of rape apologists is.


and again in your case the joke isn't on the victim of kidnapping, its on the kidnapper. So it seems fairly straightforward to say that comedy at the expense of a 'group of people' if you're not part of that group if that group has a negative trait. I.E jokes about kidnappers or rape apologists.

So then if someone were to make a joke about gay people, that would mean whoever is telling the joke is suggesting that being gay is something to be laughed at. I've NEVER seen instances of people lambasting someone for a joke before the punchline is reached, except in fringe cases where the joke is that you assume the punchline is going to be offensive (the classic "what do you call a black guy flying a plane? a pilot!").

Because that's not what we're talking about! We're talking about people defending their right to be racist, transphobic, homophobic, whatever as "it's only a joke!" and that you don't have to make those jokes. We're not trying to decide here what is and isn't offensive BECAUSE IT SHOULD BE OBVIOUS. There's no need to start pussyfooting around and going "oh oh is it offensive if I say this? what about this?". It's the same as going "yeah but what if a white kid was stuck on a desert island that had an erupting volcano and he had a helicopter that ONLY activated if he said the n-word?! would you let him say it then?". Don't try and draw a line in the sand and sort every single possible joke into offensive or inoffensive. What offends people is changing constantly, so change with it! Don't go "oh well it used to be ok to say this so why cant I anymore???", just don't say it!!!

The point is that you shouldn't need to be offensive to be funny. If you're called out on being offensive, don't take it as an attack, take it as an opportunity to correct yourself.

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Re: [Video] Political Correctness Doesn't Censor, It Keeps Comedy Fresh

Postby Miniike » August 9th, 2017, 5:12 pm

wow this was actually a pretty good thread
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