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Uuh, Objection?
- TheLastLink
- Member
- Posts: 606
- Joined: October 16th, 2012, 7:00 pm
- Design Competitions Voted: 2
If this thread gets locked, it means two things:
Wowfun will have proved that he is utterly unserious about doing what needs to be done for OMB and for this community, and I am leaving, banned or unbanned, and won't be coming back until/unless something serious happens with the game or the site. If it gets locked, chances are neither will happen, which means that chances are I'm not coming back.
With that said,
This is SIMPLY UNACCEPTABLE.
Now surely you've by now noticed that I (TLL) have a history of clashing with the community moderators and have a general (not personal) dislike for them, and generally strong as well. Now one would think that there are two possibilities: He either has an irrational hatred for moderators, or there's a reason for it. After all that has happened, do you really think this is all unwarranted?
No. It is warranted, and I will explain why. Now most of the mods on this site were either users or moderators themselves on Atmosphir, and have a general habit of maintaining an air of strict professionalism, officiality, and authority, and strive to maintain general secrecy in their affairs.
Now this is all well and good, to be expected, reasonable, etc...
On a site like Atmosphir where they are supposed to be peacekeepers (like any other site), representatives of a company for the community, and (because of the demographic of the game) strict authority figures.
It worked well enough (emphasis on the "enough", there were a few major mistakes made but I digress) on Atmosphir.
Everyone saw how awfully it was bungled on Voxelus. I shouldn't even have to explain why...
It didn't work on Voxelus because they applied the same moderation ethic to Voxelus, which was a different site, with a much smaller, integrated community that was a lot more familiar with eachother. Instead of just letting people alone, everyone was treated like a 12 year old who didn't know anyone else on the forum. Frustration boilups and flame wars and epic lulz ensued.
It was a disaster.
I'll post the rest later but I'm too burned out right now.
Wowfun will have proved that he is utterly unserious about doing what needs to be done for OMB and for this community, and I am leaving, banned or unbanned, and won't be coming back until/unless something serious happens with the game or the site. If it gets locked, chances are neither will happen, which means that chances are I'm not coming back.
With that said,
This is SIMPLY UNACCEPTABLE.
Now surely you've by now noticed that I (TLL) have a history of clashing with the community moderators and have a general (not personal) dislike for them, and generally strong as well. Now one would think that there are two possibilities: He either has an irrational hatred for moderators, or there's a reason for it. After all that has happened, do you really think this is all unwarranted?
No. It is warranted, and I will explain why. Now most of the mods on this site were either users or moderators themselves on Atmosphir, and have a general habit of maintaining an air of strict professionalism, officiality, and authority, and strive to maintain general secrecy in their affairs.
Now this is all well and good, to be expected, reasonable, etc...
On a site like Atmosphir where they are supposed to be peacekeepers (like any other site), representatives of a company for the community, and (because of the demographic of the game) strict authority figures.
It worked well enough (emphasis on the "enough", there were a few major mistakes made but I digress) on Atmosphir.
Everyone saw how awfully it was bungled on Voxelus. I shouldn't even have to explain why...
It didn't work on Voxelus because they applied the same moderation ethic to Voxelus, which was a different site, with a much smaller, integrated community that was a lot more familiar with eachother. Instead of just letting people alone, everyone was treated like a 12 year old who didn't know anyone else on the forum. Frustration boilups and flame wars and epic lulz ensued.
It was a disaster.
I'll post the rest later but I'm too burned out right now.
- TheLastLink
- Member
- Posts: 606
- Joined: October 16th, 2012, 7:00 pm
- Design Competitions Voted: 2
- Miniike
- Well-Known Member
- Posts: 10959
- Joined: November 1st, 2012, 12:03 pm
- Location: my beautiful house with my beautiful wife
- Contact:
for fricking fricks sake why do i still care
1. Wild Life 2. China Pig 3. The Blimp (Mousetrapreplica) 4. Sugar N' Spikes 5. Ant Man Bee
you'll love it, it's a way of life
1. Wild Life 2. China Pig 3. The Blimp (Mousetrapreplica) 4. Sugar N' Spikes 5. Ant Man Bee
you'll love it, it's a way of life
- TheLastLink
- Member
- Posts: 606
- Joined: October 16th, 2012, 7:00 pm
- Design Competitions Voted: 2
Alright I'm a little calmer. Let's try again and continue.
I'll be the first to admit I have no prior moderating experience, but that doesn't preclude me from being able to see the blatant and inherent flaws in how this community is run. Criticism doesn't have to be based on experience to be legitimate. The point is:
It is no coincidence that the moderation and overall community management (which I will refer to the moderation in general as) has crashed through the floor since Atmosphir died. The reason is that nobody seems to understand that the heavy-handed, law-and-order show-of-authority type community management that was necessary for a game forum full of immature (It's not meant to be an insult, but it is the truth) kids who didn't know anyone else and didn't know any better, doesn't work for a community of people who are all friends and all know eachother relatively well and can all behave themselves.
Yes, we could all do well to take ourselves a little more seriously, make more of an effort to not get off topic or start arguments, but the bulk of the problem is that the management is bent on (in the literal sense of the word) dictating the community, instead of letting the community dictate itself, and gently push it in the right direction if things start to get out of hand.
Moderation and management on a site such as this should strive to moderate as little as possible, be noticed even less, and take definitive action (like banning someone) only as a last resort.
It shouldn't be the kind of "RESPECT MY AUTHORITY", professional-at-all-times-even-if-it-kills-you, secretive, and quite frankly lazy management we see now. Moderators shouldn't be community fixtures, not on a site like this.
This brings us to the ban of papaya, the status quo, the future of the atmosphir project, and wowfunhappy.
I'll write more.
I'll be the first to admit I have no prior moderating experience, but that doesn't preclude me from being able to see the blatant and inherent flaws in how this community is run. Criticism doesn't have to be based on experience to be legitimate. The point is:
It is no coincidence that the moderation and overall community management (which I will refer to the moderation in general as) has crashed through the floor since Atmosphir died. The reason is that nobody seems to understand that the heavy-handed, law-and-order show-of-authority type community management that was necessary for a game forum full of immature (It's not meant to be an insult, but it is the truth) kids who didn't know anyone else and didn't know any better, doesn't work for a community of people who are all friends and all know eachother relatively well and can all behave themselves.
Yes, we could all do well to take ourselves a little more seriously, make more of an effort to not get off topic or start arguments, but the bulk of the problem is that the management is bent on (in the literal sense of the word) dictating the community, instead of letting the community dictate itself, and gently push it in the right direction if things start to get out of hand.
Moderation and management on a site such as this should strive to moderate as little as possible, be noticed even less, and take definitive action (like banning someone) only as a last resort.
It shouldn't be the kind of "RESPECT MY AUTHORITY", professional-at-all-times-even-if-it-kills-you, secretive, and quite frankly lazy management we see now. Moderators shouldn't be community fixtures, not on a site like this.
This brings us to the ban of papaya, the status quo, the future of the atmosphir project, and wowfunhappy.
I'll write more.
- Wowfunhappy
- Administrator
- Posts: 958
- Joined: September 30th, 2012, 12:46 pm
So you didn't actually read my post. I suggested that you create a group conversation with everyone who is concerned.tta wrote:and how are moderator problems going to be recognized as problems AND dealt with appropriately if they are one-on-one conversations with moderators? im pretty sure that's not how things work. a problem in our government isn't fixed when a citizen goes to the white house and tells the government men that it's a problem.
I don't know of a single, functional forum that discusses mod issues out in the open like this. Not a single one.
I have a migraine right now so I haven't read a ton.
- TheLastLink
- Member
- Posts: 606
- Joined: October 16th, 2012, 7:00 pm
- Design Competitions Voted: 2
- Miniike
- Well-Known Member
- Posts: 10959
- Joined: November 1st, 2012, 12:03 pm
- Location: my beautiful house with my beautiful wife
- Contact:
Disscusing mod issues is essential to keep this community alive, because we can't afford to drive people away with this godawful moderation. This concerns the whole community, who, BTW, is the "everyone concerned" you are referring too.
Shape up or we have no future.
Shape up or we have no future.
for fricking fricks sake why do i still care
1. Wild Life 2. China Pig 3. The Blimp (Mousetrapreplica) 4. Sugar N' Spikes 5. Ant Man Bee
you'll love it, it's a way of life
1. Wild Life 2. China Pig 3. The Blimp (Mousetrapreplica) 4. Sugar N' Spikes 5. Ant Man Bee
you'll love it, it's a way of life
- ElectroYoshi
- Well-Known Member
- Posts: 11061
- Joined: October 18th, 2012, 8:27 pm
- Design Competitions Voted: 1
OK, lemme reword that. There's a fine line between discouraging debate in general and discouraging debate that ends up like this.Miniike wrote:A person made an incredibly stupid argument, and it was pointed out. How is that out of hand?
Well, yes, exactly.tta wrote: a post where somebody makes their (bad) argument and it backfires shouldn't make a thread get locked. that is debating. i thought you have been making change omb, and now i am disappointed.
What is acceptable in debate:
- That's not really true. The reality is...
- You raise a good point, but...
- While that is true to a point...
- ARE YOU ****ING SERIOUS?!?!
- OH MY GOD YOU ARE A FREAKING IDIOT!!!
- YOU HAVE NO SENSE AND YOU ARE A DISGRACE AND YOU SUCK AND I HATE YOU!!!11!1!!!1!!11!1!1ONE
that being said, electroyoshi's malicious remark on my comment was a personal attack and should not be tolerated, especially if he is making the remark about MY DEAD FRATHER t h a t . w a s . a . j o k e
This is just beating a dead horse first of all. Secondly, you really don't want to end a sentence with a joke if you want it to be taken seriously. And lastly, it's not like YOU aren't plenty guilty of it too.
Spoiler
and how are moderator problems going to be recognized as problems AND dealt with appropriately if they are one-on-one conversations with moderators? im pretty sure that's not how things work. a problem in our government isn't fixed when a citizen goes to the white house and tells the goverment men that it's a problem.
1) You can easily discuss it in a group conversation first of all. Not to mention that when it's kept off the actual forums, criticism of moderators is less clutter-inducing, more respectful, and most importantly, more effective.
2) The government is completely different from moderators on a forum and comparing the two is just delusional. Of course it's not solved when a citizen goes to the White House and tells the government there's a problem. That's because the government is vastly bigger than a group of moderators, and they monitor a whole country, which is vastly bigger than an online community. With online communities, this problem is not present.
See, what you see as "silencing any and all disagreements" is, in reality, preventing childish comments like this.the only person you are allowed to berate is electr- wait nevermind electro isn't gonna be in here due to the above
I'll elaborate further if someone needs me too, but I think I've made my point.
I need a shot again, that sweet adrenaline.
- TheLastLink
- Member
- Posts: 606
- Joined: October 16th, 2012, 7:00 pm
- Design Competitions Voted: 2
Electro, you really need to stop overreacting and using hyperbole to prove your point. It doesn't reflect well on you.ElectroYoshi wrote:OK, lemme reword that. There's a fine line between discouraging debate in general and discouraging debate that ends up like this.
Well, yes, exactly.
What is acceptable in debate:What is not acceptable in debate and would serve only to make this forum miles less appealing:
- That's not really true. The reality is...
- You raise a good point, but...
- While that is true to a point...
This is just beating a dead horse first of all. Secondly, you really don't want to end a sentence with a joke if you want it to be taken seriously. And lastly, it's not like YOU aren't plenty guilty of it too.
- ARE YOU ****ING SERIOUS?!?!
- OH MY GOD YOU ARE A FREAKING IDIOT!!!
- YOU HAVE NO SENSE AND YOU ARE A DISGRACE AND YOU SUCK AND I HATE YOU!!!11!1!!!1!!11!1!1ONE
I rest my case.Spoiler
1) You can easily discuss it in a group conversation first of all. Not to mention that when it's kept off the actual forums, criticism of moderators is less clutter-inducing, more respectful, and most importantly, more effective.
2) The government is completely different from moderators on a forum and comparing the two is just delusional. Of course it's not solved when a citizen goes to the White House and tells the government there's a problem. That's because the government is vastly bigger than a group of moderators, and they monitor a whole country, which is vastly bigger than an online community. With online communities, this problem is not present.
See, what you see as "silencing any and all disagreements" is, in reality, preventing childish comments like this.
I'll elaborate further if someone needs me too, but I think I've made my point.
Also I'm very curious as to the "my poll was rigged" charge. What alts did you delete that voted in the poll, Wowfun? Whose were they?
- Sebastian Lawe
- Moderator
- Posts: 2534
- Joined: October 17th, 2012, 7:58 am
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Really, all I got from reading through those long paragraph posts is this:
So, I'm locking this thread on the following grounds. I see no constructive debate happening here, people are just batting opinions at each other with no actual progression towards the original issue brought up. As well, I don't think the few things I listed really needed to be conveyed via their own thread. A conversation would have done quite nicely, and is actually more likely to invoke a response, since alerts will pop up for anybody included inside one. Feel free to start a conversation with me, so we can discuss whatever needs discussing (like seriously, I didn't even know this thread existed until 16 hours later. It would of been much quicker to respond via PM since I get emailed and such). When I need deodorant, asking everybody on Facebook if they have deodorant doesn't do anything. That Facebook post gets drowned in an ocean of other posts. I direct the information to my father (who isn't the public), and actually get what I need.
It would be nice to have a constructive conversation free of unnecessary opinions that don't seem to go anywhere. I'd like to speak facts, and how to go about fixing the three relevant points made in this thread.
~Locked until somebody can convince me otherwise~
- Moderation needs to be improved.
- Moderation should feel transparent.
- One can't simply revoke a ban and expect things to be fixed.
So, I'm locking this thread on the following grounds. I see no constructive debate happening here, people are just batting opinions at each other with no actual progression towards the original issue brought up. As well, I don't think the few things I listed really needed to be conveyed via their own thread. A conversation would have done quite nicely, and is actually more likely to invoke a response, since alerts will pop up for anybody included inside one. Feel free to start a conversation with me, so we can discuss whatever needs discussing (like seriously, I didn't even know this thread existed until 16 hours later. It would of been much quicker to respond via PM since I get emailed and such). When I need deodorant, asking everybody on Facebook if they have deodorant doesn't do anything. That Facebook post gets drowned in an ocean of other posts. I direct the information to my father (who isn't the public), and actually get what I need.
It would be nice to have a constructive conversation free of unnecessary opinions that don't seem to go anywhere. I'd like to speak facts, and how to go about fixing the three relevant points made in this thread.
~Locked until somebody can convince me otherwise~