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Miniike
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Post by Miniike » February 21st, 2014, 12:56 pm

As a certified idiot, I don't think there's much I can add to this discussion other then I am also a Christian. I probably mentioned that somewhere else before, but I forget where. :P
:pigflag: for fricking fricks sake why do i still care :pigflag:
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Post by Entity » February 21st, 2014, 12:58 pm

Miniike wrote:Bravo sir!
Wait, so was this directed at me then? xD
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Post by Miniike » February 21st, 2014, 12:59 pm

Yes. Sorry for the confusion. SL's gif was awesome tho.
:pigflag: for fricking fricks sake why do i still care :pigflag:
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Post by Sebastian Lawe » February 21st, 2014, 1:01 pm

Entity wrote:These are some pretty solid principles, and there's nothing wrong with them, but where do they come from? Why follow them if there is no God? (which I assume you believe, if His principles aren't good enough)
I follow them because they are what I believe. There doesn't have to be a god to back them up. Why not follow them if there is no god? Why follow them if there is?

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Post by Entity » February 21st, 2014, 1:05 pm

Sebastian Lawe wrote:I follow them because they are what I believe. There doesn't have to be a god to back them up. Why not follow them if there is no god? Why follow them if there is?
Why not follow Jesus if that will get you to heaven?
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Post by Sebastian Lawe » February 21st, 2014, 3:28 pm

Entity wrote:Why not follow Jesus if that will get you to heaven?
Because, there isn't just one religion. Every religion wholeheartedly believes that their religion will get them to some awesome place. I am strictly agnostic. It would be wrong of me to blindly assume one of many religions is correct. What happens after I die doesn't matter, all the matters is that I'm alive, right here, and now. If it turns out that I was wrong, then I guess I'll be screwed.

If I were to put my numbers on any afterlife though, it would be that of buhddists. I would rather be born again than go to heaven.

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Post by Phantomboy » February 21st, 2014, 3:40 pm

Although this doesn't directly contribute to the initial discussion, this falls on a similar topic. The thought of a paradise, eternal happiness is nearly as frightening to me as an eternal dark void to me. Obviously if I had to choose which to accept as the outcome of our lives, I would pick the outcome with actions and discussions. However, part of what adds to the "flavour" of life is it's ups and downs, arguments and agreements. To lack any dispute, harm and disagreements would take away the present "problem solving" aspect of our brain that is very hard coded into our personalities.

I know the specifics of an afterlife are greatly up for debate, but I've never knew what the implied presence of us was. I would be naive to assume it would appear identical to our world, but imagining anything outside of our realm of colours, textures and feelings is near impossible. So, as interested as I am in religions, I take the impression that I think most people do - that it is, simply out of our realm of imagining. Which isn't bad, but it is interesting to ponder.
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Post by Entity » February 21st, 2014, 4:52 pm

Sebastian Lawe wrote:It would be wrong of me to blindly assume one of many religions is correct.
So just because there is more than one religion makes them all false? That's not very solid reasoning.
Sebastian Lawe]What happens after I die doesn't matter wrote:
It doesn't matter that you're going to be in a lake of fire for all eternity? Shouldn't that possibility make you want to know for sure that you know where you're going?
Phantomboy wrote:The thought of a paradise, eternal happiness is nearly as frightening to me as an eternal dark void to me.
I agree that anything like that that I can imagine does seem boring, but Heaven is beyond imagining. God created us as perfect human beings, and it was essentially heaven on earth until Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit, introducing sin into the world.

But I can promise you it won't be boring (and the Bible does as well). But even if it were boring, I would certainly rather be bored than burning in Hell.
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Post by Sebastian Lawe » February 21st, 2014, 5:10 pm

Entity wrote:So just because there is more than one religion makes them all false? That's not very solid reasoning.
I never said that. I simply said I won't pick a specific one. I read from any religion I can find, to learn more about the world. I am strictly agnostic, everything is possible, but equally impossible until it is a proven fact.
Entity wrote: It doesn't matter that you're going to be in a lake of fire for all eternity? Shouldn't that possibility make you want to know for sure that you know where you're going?
I wasn't raised in Christianity, so that consequence doesn't really concern me. To me, thats like saying dragons are going to burn my house down because I don't believe in Santa. Both sound the same to me.

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Post by Miniike » February 22nd, 2014, 6:40 am

Sebastian Lawe wrote:If I were to put my numbers on any afterlife though, it would be that of buhddists. I would rather be born again than go to heaven.
This isn't a opinion, it's just a few factual things to be pointed out:

1. Reincarnation is not in any way exclusive to Buddhism. It's a staple in most eastern religions and many sects and cults.
2. You are not equating (or approximating) yourself to a Buddhist by saying you would rather be reincarnated. Buddhism is about reaching Nirvana, which is FREEDOM from reincarnation. Buddhists do not want to be born again, they are working so that they don't have too.
:pigflag: for fricking fricks sake why do i still care :pigflag:
:lock: 1. Wild Life 2. China Pig 3. The Blimp (Mousetrapreplica) 4. Sugar N' Spikes 5. Ant Man Bee :lock:
:bomb: you'll love it, it's a way of life :bomb:

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Post by freekboy31 » February 22nd, 2014, 9:15 am

I'm actually a quarter to arrogant person. But, I was thankful my parents raised me well and I learned I don't have to be selfish at all. I remember memorizing the ten commandments and other list of good moral statements. Sometimes, it's just memorizing them not doing it with your heart.

However, due to the influence of the modern society, I have committed a sin, a mistake that would bring me down when time comes. Among all lies I did, one honest thing I had admitted was that I am a sinner. Time comes you have to be with people not your obligations.

I'm a good person depending on whom I'm getting along with.
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Post by Sebastian Lawe » February 22nd, 2014, 1:47 pm

Miniike wrote:This isn't a opinion, it's just a few factual things to be pointed out:

1. Reincarnation is not in any way exclusive to Buddhism. It's a staple in most eastern religions and many sects and cults.
2. You are not equating (or approximating) yourself to a Buddhist by saying you would rather be reincarnated. Buddhism is about reaching Nirvana, which is FREEDOM from reincarnation. Buddhists do not want to be born again, they are working so that they don't have too.
I understand the goal is not be be reborn, however, it is my goal to be reborn. As well, its not my job to keep track of what relgions share what. Buhddism was just a name that stuck out in my mind.

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Post by Miniike » February 22nd, 2014, 6:04 pm

Sebastian Lawe wrote:I understand the goal is not be be reborn, however, it is my goal to be reborn. As well, its not my job to keep track of what relgions share what. Buhddism was just a name that stuck out in my mind.
I didn't say it was your job, or even that it was a stupid mistake. It's just that Buddhism is a bit of a poor example of what you were trying to say.
:pigflag: for fricking fricks sake why do i still care :pigflag:
:lock: 1. Wild Life 2. China Pig 3. The Blimp (Mousetrapreplica) 4. Sugar N' Spikes 5. Ant Man Bee :lock:
:bomb: you'll love it, it's a way of life :bomb:

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Post by ElectroYoshi » February 22nd, 2014, 6:12 pm

^^ To add to that, I think WANTING to be born again is more of a Hindu thing.

But anyway, I've always been more of a Methodist than a typical conservative Christian, so I've been raised on the belief that believing in God and the good you do in life will get you into heaven.

I know I'm not perfect. Nobody is. If everyone who ever committed any kind of sin were sent to hell, EVERYBODY would be sent to hell. Hell tends to associated more with people who were just plain bad in general in life. If you were good in life from a general standpoint, your sins can be overlooked.
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Post by Miniike » February 23rd, 2014, 5:40 pm

ElectroYoshi wrote:^^ To add to that, I think WANTING to be born again is more of a Hindu thing.
It sort of is, to atone for karma. But there are other groups where reincarnation is actually the way of salvation, like New Age and Gnostic groups. Reincarnation is gradual perfection in Scientology, to the point of becoming the godlike "**** novis".

Okaywow I just know way to much about cults.
:pigflag: for fricking fricks sake why do i still care :pigflag:
:lock: 1. Wild Life 2. China Pig 3. The Blimp (Mousetrapreplica) 4. Sugar N' Spikes 5. Ant Man Bee :lock:
:bomb: you'll love it, it's a way of life :bomb:

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Post by Entity » February 23rd, 2014, 8:00 pm

ElectroYoshi wrote:I know I'm not perfect. Nobody is. If everyone who ever committed any kind of sin were sent to hell, EVERYBODY would be sent to hell. Hell tends to associated more with people who were just plain bad in general in life. If you were good in life from a general standpoint, your sins can be overlooked.
The Bible very clearly states that anyone who sins will not go to heaven. So yes, if it weren't for Jesus dying on the cross and giving anyone who will accept it, the free gift of eternal life, everyone would go to Hell.

Romans 3:23 - For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

Romans 6:23 - For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life

Again, the example of a judge. Just because you <insert good things here> doesn't change the fact that you <insert bad things here>. A good judge will sentence you based on how you broke the law, not lessening the sentence just because you gave to the poor or were a generally nice person. God is a just and righteous judge.

Please prove me wrong though! Show me a Bible verse that says you can get to Heaven by being "good enough."
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Post by ElectroYoshi » February 23rd, 2014, 10:15 pm

Entity wrote:The Bible very clearly states that anyone who sins will not go to heaven. So yes, if it weren't for Jesus dying on the cross and giving anyone who will accept it, the free gift of eternal life, everyone would go to Hell.

Romans 3:23 - For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

Romans 6:23 - For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life

Again, the example of a judge. Just because you <insert good things here> doesn't change the fact that you <insert bad things here>. A good judge will sentence you based on how you broke the law, not lessening the sentence just because you gave to the poor or were a generally nice person. God is a just and righteous judge.

Please prove me wrong though! Show me a Bible verse that says you can get to Heaven by being "good enough."

You make some very good points, but the thing about God you have to bear in mind is that he's looked at as someone who forgives sins, not someone who punishes for them. I'm not saying you can just "skate on by" to get into heaven, what I'm saying is that sinning is COMPLETELY inevitable. Even if you go out of your way to NOT sin, you still will at least a few times as long as you live. Because again, nobody's perfect.

My point is, the Bible is less a "manual" for the religion and more of a reflection of cultural norms during that time period. You're not necessarily gonna go to hell for not following it word-for-word. If you sin more often than you do good, that's a different story. But if you do a thousand good things in life, and one sin... that one sin doesn't exactly make you worthy of burning in hell. Because again, God forgives sins.

Again, I'm more of a Methodist than a typical Conservative Christian, so it's possible that my views are a lot different from yours. However, that's just my take on it.
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Post by Wazi » February 23rd, 2014, 10:51 pm

I come on to OMB and what is this.

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Post by Entity » February 24th, 2014, 9:31 am

ElectroYoshi] I'm saying is that sinning is COMPLETELY inevitable. Even if you go out of your way to NOT sin wrote:
And I completely agree :)
ElectroYoshi wrote:the thing about God you have to bear in mind is that he's looked at as someone who forgives sins, not someone who punishes for them.
Why should I bear that in mind? What is your basis for that? Why do you believe that? (and those are real questions, I'm interested to know the answers :) )

I believe what I believe because it's what the Bible says. The Bible is the word of God and every word is true (you just have to use common sense). It's God's instruction to us and it clearly says that if you have even one sin on your record, you will go to hell. The good things you've done are completely irrelevant. Nowhere does it say that you can get off the hook for "doing good." God is perfect, his standard is perfection.

Only a bad judge would let you go if you were guilty, just because you were a nice person.

And God knows we could never meet that standard. "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." We've fallen short. If we tried to get to heaven on our own it would be impossible because, like you said, nobody is perfect.

In other words, without Jesus dying in our place and washing away our sins, nobody would get to heaven. Nobody.
ElectroYoshi]I'm not saying you can just wrote:
But that's exactly what you're saying! You're saying God is a corrupt judge who will ignore evil. Perfection is the standard, and it always has been. Adam and Eve were perfect, until they ate the fruit and launched the world into sinfulness.

I challenge you to show me a verse that backs your statement up.
ElectroYoshi]My point is wrote:
The Bible was written over a time period of thousands of years. The culture changed drastically over that period, and of course it has changed since, but the culture doesn't matter. Everything in the Bible is still relevant.

God sent His only son, Jesus, to die in our place; to take the punishment for our sins. That actually happened, regardless of what culture you live in.
ElectroYoshi]Again wrote:
On judgement day when I'm standing before God, it doesn't matter what your take is. It doesn't matter what my take is. It doesn't matter what I think or feel. All that matters is what The Bible actually says; what God actually said.
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Post by Miniike » February 24th, 2014, 10:38 am

Wazi wrote:I come on to OMB and what is this.
[media=youtube]vmp-xmguqh4[/media]
:pigflag: for fricking fricks sake why do i still care :pigflag:
:lock: 1. Wild Life 2. China Pig 3. The Blimp (Mousetrapreplica) 4. Sugar N' Spikes 5. Ant Man Bee :lock:
:bomb: you'll love it, it's a way of life :bomb:

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