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ElectroYoshi
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Post by ElectroYoshi » February 24th, 2014, 5:37 pm

Entity wrote:Why should I bear that in mind? What is your basis for that? Why do you believe that? (and those are real questions, I'm interested to know the answers :) )
1) Because it's basically the basis of the entire Christian religion. Without God's forgiveness, Christianity couldn't even exist (Well, it could, but it'd be vastly different...).

2 & 3) A lot of that is because I've been raised believing that, and that's one of the biggest things my church preaches.
Entity wrote:But that's exactly what you're saying! You're saying God is a corrupt judge who will ignore evil. Perfection is the standard, and it always has been. Adam and Eve were perfect, until they ate the fruit and launched the world into sinfulness.

I guess I'm not being clear enough... Maybe this will make more sense:

When you're in high school, your semester grades are recorded. You then send that record into colleges you're interested in attending. Getting good grades is the goal obviously, but it's not enough to not fail your classes. For example, THIS will improve your chances of making it into a good college:
French: A
English: A
Science: B
History: A
Math: A
THIS will not:
French: C
English: D
Science: C
History: C
Math: C
The point I'm trying to make with this analogy is that you can't just skate on by in high school to get into college by settling for C's, just because they're "passing grades". The same can be said about whether you get into heaven or not. If you're a good person overall, those few sins are not enough to land you in hell, because God forgives those. If it's closer to being half and half, then that isn't gonna cut it.
Entity wrote: The Bible was written over a time period of thousands of years. The culture changed drastically over that period, and of course it has changed since, but the culture doesn't matter. Everything in the Bible is still relevant.
I'm not saying it's NOT relevant, but not everybody follows the Bible word-for-word-for-word. What I was saying about culture earlier is more of a Methodist belief. Methodism is less about obeying every word in the Bible and more about learning from it and applying what you learn from it to your own life. But even so, it's not considered a separate religion from Christianity, because it preaches the same stuff.
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Post by Entity » February 25th, 2014, 10:05 am

ElectroYoshi wrote:1) Because it's basically the basis of the entire Christian religion. Without God's forgiveness, Christianity couldn't even exist (Well, it could, but it'd be vastly different...).

2 & 3) A lot of that is because I've been raised believing that, and that's one of the biggest things my church preaches.
I agree with what you said about God's forgiveness, that's what the Bible says too. But God's forgiveness has nothing to do with "how good you are," it just has to do with if you put your faith in him or not. Even Hitler could have gone to heaven if he repented and turned from his sins.

You believe it because you were raised in a church that teaches it? If you were raised as an athiest, would you believe that instead?
ElectroYoshi]If you're a good person overall wrote:
Where does the Bible say half and half? Where are you getting this information that, "well if you're good enough overall you can get to heaven"? The Bible is the word of God. You can add to what God said, but unless that information came from the Bible, it's not what God said, and it's not true. When you're standing before God on judgement day, he's not going to say "oh well, you believed this...?" No, he's going to say "Well I told you very clearly in my word that ..., why didn't you believe it?"

God himself said in the Bible that "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" and that no sinners can get to heaven. The only way we can get to heaven is if we repent and ask for forgiveness, and give our lives to Him. Going to heaven isn't about "being a good person," it's about having a relationship with Jesus through prayer and reading his word.

Even Hitler could have gone to heaven if he gave his life to Jesus, and Gandhi went to hell if he didn't do the same.
ElectroYoshi]I'm not saying it's NOT relevant wrote:
I don't associate myself with a denomination because it really doesn't matter to me, and it just leads to confusion. I'm sure you could label me as one that's pretty accurate, but you can call me whatever you want, that doesn't change what I really am.

I am a born again Christian, I have faith in Jesus, and I obey his commands (as written in his word).
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ElectroYoshi
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Post by ElectroYoshi » February 25th, 2014, 4:54 pm

For some reason the quote button's not working for me, so I will simply say this:

I completely understand what you're saying. I feel like this discussion has kind of been skating from topic to topic, but it also says in the Bible (at least I THINK it's in there) that nobody is so bad as to be beyond redemption. That's a key aspect of God's forgiveness. If you sin too much and don't ask for forgiveness, you will end up in hell probably, but even then redemption is well within the realm of possibility.
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Post by Entity » February 26th, 2014, 9:21 am

ElectroYoshi wrote:For some reason the quote button's not working for me, so I will simply say this:

I completely understand what you're saying. I feel like this discussion has kind of been skating from topic to topic, but it also says in the Bible (at least I THINK it's in there) that nobody is so bad as to be beyond redemption. That's a key aspect of God's forgiveness. If you sin too much and don't ask for forgiveness, you will end up in hell probably, but even then redemption is well within the realm of possibility.
Indeed!

Romans 10:9 - If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

There must have been some sort of misunderstanding somewhere haha because it sounds like we're on the same page.
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Post by ThatOneFox » February 26th, 2014, 6:09 pm

Pallet 3:10 - Every ledge makes us determined. More passionate. More fiery. Every tree makes us unite. Makes us pious and purposeful. Every cave gives us direction, even when we cannot see. Every sacrifice makes us remember. Makes us a little more whole, even though we lost a piece held dear.

These trials are frustrating and a daunting test of wills, but in the end, our sojourn into Red's world is truly magical.
I think we should bring this into the discussion. A quote from the scriptures of lord helix. It essentially describes what it means to be human. "These trials are frustrating and a daunting test of wills" is essentially life.
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Sebastian Lawe
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Post by Sebastian Lawe » February 26th, 2014, 6:54 pm

Heres some questions I would like to ask to those who are religious. I was never taught religion, or to follow it, so I'm more prone to poke holes at it.
  • What is the core difference between people who were never taught religion, and those who were?
  • Besides some rendition of an afterlife paradise, what would I gain during my life?
  • What guarantees a religions legitimacy besides being taught it from birth, and having others who believe it too?
And please, no answering the questions with a question, because that isn't an answer. Its dodging the original question (and signals that you don't actually have an answer). I'm looking for core facts here. Pretend your a salesman trying to sell a car to a salesman.

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Post by ElectroYoshi » February 26th, 2014, 9:17 pm

Sebastian Lawe wrote:
  • What guarantees a religions legitimacy besides being taught it from birth, and having others who believe it too?
The point of religion is believing in it, not knowing for sure.
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Post by Entity » February 26th, 2014, 10:18 pm

StreetLights wrote:I think we should bring this into the discussion. A quote from the scriptures of lord helix. It essentially describes what it means to be human. "These trials are frustrating and a daunting test of wills" is essentially life.
I'm not sure if I should take this seriously or not xD
ElectroYoshi wrote:The point of religion is believing in it, not knowing for sure.
I have to disagree with you here. I believe 100% that Jesus Christ is Lord, and that he was a real person who literally died for me. I know for sure that when I die, I am going to heaven :)
Sebastian Lawe wrote:Heres some questions I would like to ask to those who are religious. I was never taught religion, or to follow it, so I'm more prone to poke holes at it.
  • What is the core difference between people who were never taught religion, and those who were?
  • Besides some rendition of an afterlife paradise, what would I gain during my life?
  • What guarantees a religions legitimacy besides being taught it from birth, and having others who believe it too?
I don't really understand the point of your questions or what they have to do with what I've said so I'm not exactly sure how to answer them. Everyone you ask could give you a different answer, but if you wanted the truth, the Bible is available online for free :)

The third question though, seems to be implying that I blindly believe what I believe just because I was raised that way. If that is indeed, what you are saying, I would ask you to elaborate.
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Post by Sebastian Lawe » February 26th, 2014, 10:44 pm

Entity wrote: I don't really understand the point of your questions or what they have to do with what I've said so I'm not exactly sure how to answer them. Everyone you ask could give you a different answer, but if you wanted the truth, the Bible is available online for free :)

The third question though, seems to be implying that I blindly believe what I believe just because I was raised that way. If that is indeed, what you are saying, I would ask you to elaborate.
The questions are for my own personal clarification. I've read the bible, but it came more as an entertaining and interesting fiction to me (I didn't really like Deuteronomy though).

Now in terms of your response to the third question, just answer it. There is most certainly a reason why you follow the religion that you do, over all the other ones. What makes it the correct religion to you? Its just like asking why you would use C#,C++, and Java over each other. Or, why you would use pen over a pencil. There are concrete reasons as to why you would choose one of them. A simple question should have a simple answer. Unless there is no answer, which is of course fine. For example, I'm able to accept ElectroYoshi's answer to the question.

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Post by ElectroYoshi » February 26th, 2014, 10:44 pm

Entity wrote: I have to disagree with you here. I believe 100% that Jesus Christ is Lord, and that he was a real person who literally died for me. I know for sure that when I die, I am going to heaven :)
I'm the same way, but religion cannot be proven or disproven by facts. I too believe Jesus is lord, but until I die, there is no way to know for sure.

Sebastian Lawe wrote:Unless there is no answer, which is of course fine.


Yeah, there's really no definitive answer to that question. This kinda goes with what I was saying to Entity, but there's really no way to prove whether a religion is legitimate or not.
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Post by Sebastian Lawe » February 26th, 2014, 11:01 pm

ElectroYoshi wrote: Yeah, there's really no definitive answer to that question. This kinda goes with what I was saying to Entity, but there's really no way to prove whether a religion is legitimate or not.
Indeed. I know you've already answered the question, but my main question is this. Even with some uncertainty, what drives you to believe it, and what helps you choose the religion you follow?

Its the one question I can't seem to get a straight answer with. Defence mechanisms always seem to flare up, and I never get an answer. Nobody can seem to admit that they do or don't know why.

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Post by Entity » February 27th, 2014, 12:37 am

Sebastian Lawe wrote:Defence mechanisms always seem to flare up, and I never get an answer. Nobody can seem to admit that they do or don't know why.
I don't understand where the term "defense mechanism" is coming from :P I was clarifying your question because it didn't make sense, and now that I understand, here's your answer (it's a long one, but if you're really as interested in it as you're acting like you are then here it is):

I am sure that the Bible is true and that I am going to heaven. There's no doubt in my mind. It just makes sense, and the more I see the more it makes sense.

It sickens me how these days (like in public schools for example) if you even mention God or Jesus you can get in trouble for no real reason. Why?? If they're really so concerned about teaching you the truth, they should teach you all the viewpoints and let you figure out which evidence is stronger, not force evolution on you. Evolution is a religion in and of itself. It takes faith to be an athiest.

If you've studied biology, chemistry etc... then every single thing you learn is about how incredibly complex every single living organism is. Even the simplest of life forms, just single celled bacteria, are so unbelievably intricate. And you want me to believe that was an accident? And evolution? The odds stack up and up and up. Everything on this earth is perfect for life.

If you have ever studied a bacterium, you would know that it is incredibly complex even though it's microscopic. It is mind blowingly intricate. If you can't agree with me, you really need to read up on bacterium. Even the greatest minds of our age couldn't create something anywhere near as amazing as it. There are so many things it does; it reproduces (and we still don't even understand the details of how that works), it finds and consumes it's own food, it can send food to the parts that need it and regulate it's internal water pressure, it can perform transduction (in which it joins with another bacterium and there is a mutual transfer of DNA), there are so many things that are beneficial and necessary to it's survival that would've had to have evolved all at once for it to even live.

If you rolled 100,000 dice every millisecond, it would take this many years for them to all come up 1s: had to copy it to a tinypaste, the number was too long. I find this just as likely as something like bacteria (much less a human being) happening by "accident."

I could literally go on for days talking about all the things I learned from my biology teacher that are impossible to have happened by accident :P

It's just so obvious. When you see a painting:
Spoiler
Image
You can just tell, someone made it. It wasn't an accident. It's the same with creation. All of creation screams that there was a creator.



So now for Christianity, if I'm supposed to believe what The Bible says (which is what I base my beliefs on) it should be accurate right?

Even evolutionists agree that The Bible is one of the most accurate historical documents ever. Thousands of copies have been found all over the place, and 99.9% of them have all been identical. The only discrepancies have been, a spelling error in one or two of them perhaps.

The Bible is a collection of books that were written by different people. The books of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John (The Gospels) were written by four people (and named after them as well). If you read them, they are four different accounts from four different people about the same exact thing. Some of them include specific details and others include others, but they all describe the death of Jesus Christ, and how God poured out his wrath (for our sins) on Jesus as he hung on the cross.

We deserved to have God's wrath poured out on us. That's what hell is, it's the absence of God. But God loved us so much that he sent his only son Jesus to die on the cross so that we wouldn't have to be punished for our sins. It has nothing to do with how good we are, all we have to do is give our lives to Jesus. We have to trust him the way you'd trust a parachute. You don't just "trust" it, you put it on, you believe it can save you, and you act on it.

Do you know when you're going to die? You could get hit by a car tomorrow. I could get hit by a car tomorrow.

Scientists have proven that 10 out of 10 people die.

Okay so here's a serious question for you now :) When you're standing before God on judgement day, and he looks at all your sins and compares you to his perfect standard, will you be innocent or guilty?
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Post by Sebastian Lawe » February 27th, 2014, 2:17 am

Entity wrote: Okay so here's a serious question for you now :) When you're standing before God on judgement day, and he looks at all your sins and compares you to his perfect standard, will you be innocent or guilty?
Well, things get a bit complex with this question. I've never believed in perfection. To be perfect, means to have no motivation for self improvement. Without self improvement, purpose in life would be gone. Why would motivation be gone with perfection? I could make a song, and be bored because it didn't take me any effort, and I would have learned nothing from it. Though, I suppose that strays from the question. To Gods standard, I will burn in hell. I could find the cure for cancer, save millions, inspire people, but I am still going to hell. Why? Because I do not recognize Jesus as my savior. Rather, I recognize him as friend to our species. I see him as an eventual equal. I know he was most definitely on this planet at one point too. Otherwise we wouldn't have "BC" and "AC" time measurements.

Now, to go an a completely other tangent.

I can accept the creationist idea. If we as humans are able to make glow in the dark puppies and such by modifying genes, then its not out of the question to think that humans were engineered. It would explain the missing link between chimps and humans. And actually, scientists have found that human DNA has genetic code untraceable to any other species on this planet. Though, heres a thought. Would it be out of the question to see God as an Alien? I mean, aliens come from the sky, and angels come from the sky. Could they simply be the same things described with different words? Somewhere in the bible, Chariots Of Fire are mentioned. Could those maybe be a description of space ships? In Europe, there is also scientific proof of 3 nuclear fallout's that have occurred (supposedly the cause for Caucasian people. One main thing with radiation is loss of pigment). India also has traces of radiation (their drawn deities always have more limbs than normal). Weirder yet, dinosaur bones have to be coated in paint because their bones are radioactive (could they have been killed off by intention). We strive to be our creator, but we don't have the same mental capacity yet. Therefore, we have yet to pull apart what he has done. Evolution still happened, but there are certain traits that get implanted by force. For example, Monsanto's seeds didn't evolve to be pesticide and weather resistant. They were directly modified. Though it doesn't stop bugs from developing a resistance to the pesticides. If you kill 98% of the bugs, the remaining bugs will mate, and the next generation of bugs now has a resistance to that pesticide. So, you strengthen the pesticide. You kill another 98% of the bug population, and the again the remaining bugs will mate, and the next generation of bugs will be resistant to the stronger pesticide. That is evolution. The weak die, the strong get to mate, the next generation is born with a skill that the dead didn't have. Though, human evolution has been directly tampered with. Call the entity what you will who did it. I see truth in every religions story. Is there any coincidence that all across the world, people worship God(s)?

Even with the Adam and Eves story, there lies some potential truth. The bible says God took Adams rib to make eve, but I have a feeling that was a miss translation (since the bible was originally in hebrew). I think God extracted DNA from Adams rib, and modified that DNA to make eve. The tree of knowledge could have just been a library (a metaphor). "You can read any book you want, but hey, don't read from that shelf of books". Ever notice how apples and teachers go hand in hand? As for the talking serpent, I don't think there was any talking serpent. It could of simply been a person or figure that was bashed upon for convincing Adam and Eve to read books with the truth. There is a very scary thing that I learned from that passage though. It says that sin did not exist until we gained knowledge. That means that God wants us in ignorance. I also found another connection. What if Prometheus was the serpent? Prometheus was punished by the gods for giving the gift of knowledge to man.

All hypothetical stuff here.

I'm an agnostic deist. I try my hardest to bridge connections between religion and science. I look deeper into the words, and reformat them to make sense in today's world. I think separating religion and science into different classes is dumb. Both are the components for understanding. As well, the Christian bible is not the only bible either. I'm sure there were Gods who waged war with each other way back when, and wanted humanity to be loyal to just their presence. Though, I also believe there is a point when we as humans began tampering with religion, and using it just to control people.

One last thing I must say. In my opinion, God is not an all powerful magical being. He is just a Scientist with a higher brain capacity than ours. There are things he can't teach us, much like we can't teach a dog everything. His magic, is merely unexplained science. How hard would it be to convince a person in the 1400s that your phone is a gift from God (even though it isn't)?

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Post by Entity » February 27th, 2014, 10:12 am

Sebastian Lawe wrote:Well, things get a bit complex with this question. I've never believed in perfection. To be perfect, means to have no motivation for self improvement. Without self improvement, purpose in life would be gone. Why would motivation be gone with perfection? I could make a song, and be bored because it didn't take me any effort, and I would have learned nothing from it.
If you aren't a Christian, then... yeah! There's absolutely no motivation to be perfect because it doesn't benefit you.

But when you get saved, and you put on Jesus Christ, you want to obey him. Obeying him brings you joy! I have experienced this myself.

Heaven is perfect, and it's going to be the most amazing thing we've ever experienced.
Sebastian]Though wrote:
If there's one thing the Bible is clear about, it's that God is not our equal. We will never be equal with him. He knows everything, past present and future. He created the entire universe from nothing, and he can do that because he is God! To say that God is equal to us is blasphemy.
Sebastian]Though wrote:
If you want to take the facts of the Bible and stretch them to fit what we know about science, you will end up with a warped view of the Bible. God is not an alien. A mere alien wouldn't be perfect either. The Bible says that God knows everything. Ever. He knows the names of every single one of the trillions and trillions of stars (and we can't even comprehend the number). He created them all in one day, we as humans will never be able to do something like that (something from nothing is impossible for us because we are limited by the laws of physics.)
Sebastian]Evolution still happened wrote:
This is micro-evolution, and it is a scientific fact.

Micro-evolution involves specific genes that already exist being different, and those genes being transferred to offspring. It's the same animal and it always will be the same animal, just with tiny differences (e.g. resistance to pesticides, or a different color/size etc...).

Macro-evolution however is the theory (that directly contradicts the Bible) saying that apes evolved into humans etc...
But it's the only one that is consistent with itself, and has proof that it was actually written by the people who they say it's written by.
Sebastian]I'm sure there were Gods who waged war with each other way back when wrote:
You make two completely outrageous statements here and if you really believe them, then please offer some proof? Otherwise I am just going to disregard them.
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Post by Entity » February 27th, 2014, 10:13 am

(sorry for the double post, my post was too long! xP)

[quote="Sebastian]One last thing I must say. In my opinion"]

*red flags going up*

When you're standing before God on judgement day, it doesn't matter what your opinion is. Your opinion does not matter. Nobody's does. God is real, and he exists, and The Bible is his letter to us telling us the facts about what he is like. If you believe in a god who is limited by time and space and physics and has a limited brain, okay. But that god will not save you from hell, because he doesn't exist.

[quote="Sebastian]To Gods standard"]

Yes! Exactly. "For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God."

Hell is a place of eternal torment. It was specifically made as an eternal punishment. Even if the punishment isn't that bad (and the Bible says it is), it's eternal, and that in and of itself is horrific enough, especially when the alternative is eternal paradise worshipping God and feeling his peace and joy.

Doesn't that concern you that you'll go to hell?
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Post by Sebastian Lawe » February 27th, 2014, 11:04 am

Entity wrote:If you aren't a Christian, then... yeah! There's absolutely no motivation to be perfect because it doesn't benefit you.

But when you get saved, and you put on Jesus Christ, you want to obey him. Obeying him brings you joy! I have experienced this myself.

Heaven is perfect, and it's going to be the most amazing thing we've ever experienced.
I honestly don't feel like stoning people though, or cutting off the hands of women. Its written in the bible, so I would therefore have to do to it, because its gods word.
Entity wrote: If there's one thing the Bible is clear about, it's that God is not our equal. We will never be equal with him. He knows everything, past present and future. He created the entire universe from nothing, and he can do that because he is God! To say that God is equal to us is blasphemy.
My two year old sister believes I know everything, it doesn't make it true however. Even if that were to be written in a book. I could never be Harry Potter, but he is relatable.
Entity wrote: If you want to take the facts of the Bible and stretch them to fit what we know about science, you will end up with a warped view of the Bible. God is not an alien. A mere alien wouldn't be perfect either. The Bible says that God knows everything. Ever. He knows the names of every single one of the trillions and trillions of stars (and we can't even comprehend the number). He created them all in one day, we as humans will never be able to do something like that (something from nothing is impossible for us because we are limited by the laws of physics.)
Any book can say anything it wants. Difference being people believe what the bible says. Though, if trying to make the bible make sense is warping it, then I'm confused.
Entity wrote: This is micro-evolution, and it is a scientific fact.

Micro-evolution involves specific genes that already exist being different, and those genes being transferred to offspring. It's the same animal and it always will be the same animal, just with tiny differences (e.g. resistance to pesticides, or a different color/size etc...).

Macro-evolution however is the theory (that directly contradicts the Bible) saying that apes evolved into humans etc...
You got me there.
Entity wrote: You can "call the entity what you will," but on judgement day if you haven't given your life to Christ and confessed that Jesus Christ is Lord, God promises to cast you into hell.

That's because Christianity was the first religion (God created the world), and all other religions try to copy it. Adam and Eve believed in the same God that I do.

Everyone knows in their heart, there was a God. However, 98% truth and 2% lies is still a lie. That's why I believe the Bible, it is 100% truth.
Errrrr, Christianity is by no means the first religion. Chinese religion predates that of the Egyptians, which predates Jewish people, which predates Christianity.
Entity wrote: Agnostic: a person who claims neither faith nor disbelief in God.
Diest: Deism is the belief that reason and observation of the natural world are sufficient to determine the existence of a Creator
Agnostic: person who holds neither of two opposing positions on a topic.
Deist: belief in a God who created the world but has since remained indifferent to it.
Entity wrote: But the Bible is true, and God is God! He doesn't have to conform to the laws of physics, he can turn water into wine if he wants to!

And if you believe in science instead of God, you'll have to say that God didn't really raise himself from the dead on the 3rd day. If you don't believe that, then there is no salvation for you and you will go to hell. Christ rose from the dead. He was dead for 3 days. You can't explain that with science, it was a miracle.
Or, God just has some very refined medical equipment. Its possible he reconstructed the cells that made up Jesus's body.
Entity wrote: Do you know what "reformatting" God's word is called? Blasphemy. Scripture is God's word. You can twist it and warp it to say whatever you want, but if you want to know the truth, if you want salvation and eternal life, you have to look at what it actually says.
Lets apply that logic to something else. I download some open source code. Its the code of somebody else, and by reformatting the code, I now have blasphemy code (to the original). I can twist it to do what I need, but it won't be the true code. However, the code will still work and compile, and is by no means incorrect.
Entity wrote: I completely agree. I'm not blind in my faith, I can look to science and it can explain a lot of things (microevolution, the flood, etc...). However you're going about it wrong. You're saying "well we have this new knowledge, let's force it on the Bible..." and you change what the Bible says. But if you don't really care about getting saved from hell that's, fine I guess.
I've said before, hell is not something I care about. I'm indifferent to all religions, each of which have their own afterlife conceptions.
Entity wrote: But it's the only one that is consistent with itself, and has proof that it was actually written by the people who they say it's written by.
I disagree. There are contradictions everywhere in the bible. It is inconsistent.
Entity wrote: You make two completely outrageous statements here and if you really believe them, then please offer some proof? Otherwise I am just going to disregard them.
And a being that can bend space and time isn't? What I said was merely hypothetical, it has little truth to back it up.

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Post by Entity » February 27th, 2014, 1:05 pm

Sebastian Lawe wrote:I honestly don't feel like stoning people though, or cutting off the hands of women. Its written in the bible, so I would therefore have to do to it, because its gods word.
That was the old testament law, which was fulfilled by Jesus, so we are no longer bound by it.
Sebane]Any book can say anything it wants. Difference being people believe what the bible says. Though wrote:
The Bible isn't just "any book," it was written by God through man.
Sebane]Errrrr wrote:
God created Adam and Eve, the first people on earth, and they knew about God. They talked to God, they obeyed his commands. I don't see how Chinese religion could come before the first people.
Sebane]Lets apply that logic to something else. I download some open source code. Its the code of somebody else wrote:
Is that open source code the perfect and holy word of God? No, it's not, so it doesn't matter if you change it. Your analogy doesn't work. Source code is you telling the computer what to do, but The Bible is God telling us what to do.

The Bible is God's word, and he meant every word of it. You can't change it to mean whatever you want without it being blasphemy.
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Post by Sebastian Lawe » February 27th, 2014, 1:33 pm

Entity wrote:That was the old testament law, which was fulfilled by Jesus, so we are no longer bound by it.
The Bible isn't just "any book," it was written by God through man.
Cite when that event happened.
Entity wrote: God created Adam and Eve, the first people on earth, and they knew about God. They talked to God, they obeyed his commands. I don't see how Chinese religion could come before the first people.
Provided thats a true story.
Entity wrote: Is that open source code the perfect and holy word of God? No, it's not, so it doesn't matter if you change it. Your analogy doesn't work. Source code is you telling the computer what to do, but The Bible is God telling us what to do.

The Bible is God's word, and he meant every word of it. You can't change it to mean whatever you want without it being blasphemy.
When somebody says "the something something of God" it doesn't really empower anything for me.
Entity wrote: You don't care about eternal torment? That seems like a pretty bold statement.

Other religions have their own idea of afterlife, yes, but they're all made up. Okay so this guy named Siddhartha comes along and randomly decides that "if you live a good life, you will be enlightened and reincarnate." Um... who is he to decide? Did he create the world? Does he make the rules? No! He doesn't. God makes the rules, so I'm gonna listen to what he says.
Can you prove that the eternal torment exists? How do you know for sure that the religion you follow isn't man made? All you have is a book. Its rather convenient that God hasn't said "Hey I'm here, and I'm real!". I mean, if he did that think of all the immediate followers he would have. I question why he leaves us in the dark, if he is real.
Entity wrote: That's a huge list, and I picked 4 at random to explain.

Most of the examples on the webpage are horrific cases of taking out of context and deliberately not trying to understand them. Have you even read all of them yourself?

29. The making of images forbidden
Ex 20:4 - In this case, God is clearly telling the people not to make images and worship them. There's nothing wrong with a statue though.
The making of images commanded
Ex 25:18,20 - In these verses, God is telling the people to make golden statues of angels to put in God's temple to glorify him.

5. God is tired and rests
Ex 31:17 - Nowhere does it say he was "tired." God doesn't get tired. You don't have to "rest" because you're tired, resting just means to finish doing work. He rested and took a step back, so to speak, to look at the good things he made.
God is never tired and never rests
Is 40:28 - This verse speaks for itself.

8. God is all powerful
Jer 32:27/ Matt 19:26 - These verses speak for themselves.
God is not all powerful
Judg 1:19 - Nowhere does it say that God is not all powerful. He was with Judah, and he had a perfect plan for what he wanted, and he decided he didn't want them to drive out the inhabitants of the valley. He could have if he wanted to. If you've read the story of Gideon, you'll see that God used three hundred men to defeat an army of thousands and thousands.

23. There is but one God
Deut 6:4
There is a plurality of gods
Gen 1:26 - This is silly. Nowhere does it say men are gods, in the same way the president isn't God. We rule.
Gen 3:22 - Again, this is silly... it doesn't say "he has become a god", it says "he has become like one of us in that ..." and it tells the specific way Adam became similar to him.
Gen 18:1-3 - If you actually read this chapter, you'll see that the three people are actually angels, and Abraham is speaking to God and vice versa, through them.
1 John 5:7 - I don't even understand how this is supposed to prove there are multiple Gods.

I didn't pick any four in particular, and if you don't believe me, then please by all means, give me a handful that you think are contradictions! I'd be more than happy to explain, because I believe the Bible is true, and therefore all the "inconsistencies" listed on the page are false.
I commend you for being passionate about you beliefs. Many simply follow religion because others follow it. However, you are devoted to it, and have actual reasons for doing so. You've defended what you believe without insulting me as a person. Thats rare in terms of religious debates.

Now, heres some last questions. Do you believe that there is a God, or do you know that there is a God?
(To believe is to trust, to choose. To know, is to have 100% certainty).
As well, what would be a reason to choose Christianity over say, Catholic belief? Would it matter which one I choose? (as far as I know, both are similar).

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Post by Entity » February 27th, 2014, 2:24 pm

Sebastian Lawe wrote:I commend you for being passionate about you beliefs. Many simply follow religion because others follow it. However, you are devoted to it, and have actual reasons for doing so. You've defended what you believe without insulting me as a person. Thats rare in terms of religious debates.
I care about you as a human being! To me this isn't about winning some argument, I hate arguing, I just would hate to see you go to hell! Christ commands us to tell people about the amazing thing he did for me, so that's what I'm doing :)
Sebane]Now wrote:believe[/i] that there is a God, or do you know that there is a God?
(To believe is to trust, to choose. To know, is to have 100% certainty).
As well, what would be a reason to choose Christianity over say, Catholic belief? Would it matter which one I choose? (as far as I know, both are similar).
I believe there is a God; I trust, and I choose to believe it's probable. The odds of everything happening by chance say that it's possible, but it's so improbable that it's not worth even considering (e.g. the odds that 10,000 people would be struck by lighting at the same instant).

On the other hand, I can't prove it to you 100%. You can't prove anything 100%.

Is the sun really a giant ball of gas in the sky? Or is it just an illusion? I can perform all the experiments I want, and it could even be a scientific law (and it is) but science can't prove anything. Even so, I believe there is a giant ball of gas in the sky called the sun. I know there is a giant ball of gas in the sky.

I believe Jesus Christ is Lord, that he created the universe, and that he died for my sins and rose from the dead miraculously on the 3rd day.

I know Jesus Christ is Lord.

There are some things that I just don't understand. How could God create everything from nothing? That makes no sense to me, but I just have faith that if he really is God, he can do that. It's not a blind faith, I've done my homework.

(I don't know how much you already know, but) I would urge you, even if everything I've said has had no effect, to learn more about different religions. The more you read, the more you'll see they can't all be true. For example, Christianity directly contradicts Islam, Mormanism, Buddhism etc.. Either Christianity is true and all of said religions are false, or one of them is true and Christianity is false. There is an answer. There is a God.

You will go somewhere after you die. And really in the scheme of eternity, what is 80 or so years on earth? The decisions you make now will determine where you spend your eternity.
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Post by Sebastian Lawe » February 27th, 2014, 3:53 pm

Entity wrote:You will go somewhere after you die. And really in the scheme of eternity, what is 80 or so years on earth? The decisions you make now will determine where you spend your eternity.
I'm glad I particpated in this thread. Though, there is one more thing that troubles me. How does God judge the soul of a newborn baby? Is that baby going to be perfect under Gods judgement as it has not had a chance to sin? Or will it go to hell because it won't have the comprehension to recoginize God or Jesus as their creator/savior? Does it get another lease on life?

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