The forum has been archived
While the forum may not be active, the community still lives on Discord! Click here to join us.

Ucsb Shootings Prompt #yesallwomen Trend, Outrage Over Misogyny

Chat about anything
User avatar
Rabbidfan236
Well-Known Member
Posts: 1084
Joined: February 28th, 2013, 9:55 pm
Design Competitions Voted: 1

Post by Rabbidfan236 »

totaldile wrote:However, I've seen far more stories about women getting killed by men because they rejected the man or refused sex, and that's why I'm prioritising this issue.
That's just it- you've seen far more stories. That doesn't mean the opposite doesn't happen just as much, it just means the media isn't as interested in reporting it. And you knooow how trustworthily suspicious the media can be...

Not that this means you're wrong. Maybe the media is actually right on this one.
User avatar
totaldile
Member
Posts: 236
Joined: March 8th, 2013, 8:02 pm

Post by totaldile »

Rabbidfan236 wrote:That's just it- you've seen far more stories. That doesn't mean the opposite doesn't happen just as much, it just means the media isn't as interested in reporting it. And you knooow how trustworthily suspicious the media can be...

Not that this means you're wrong. Maybe the media is actually right on this one.
That's a really good point! You've also got to consider societal gender standards - as in men have to be 'tough', which could lead to fewer men reporting being assaulted.

It's disappointing we can't really move past this though :/.

But, think of it this way - if you walked past a room of women, would you be intimidated, and scared of being assaulted if one asked to go out with them, but you said no?

If I walked through a room of men, I think I'd be scared as hell :(
User avatar
Rabbidfan236
Well-Known Member
Posts: 1084
Joined: February 28th, 2013, 9:55 pm
Design Competitions Voted: 1

Post by Rabbidfan236 »

totaldile wrote:But, think of it this way - if you walked past a room of women, would you be intimidated, and scared of being assaulted if one asked to go out with them, but you said no?
No, but then again I wouldn't feel intimidated in a room full of men either.

...I'm not sure if that helps my argument.
User avatar
totaldile
Member
Posts: 236
Joined: March 8th, 2013, 8:02 pm

Post by totaldile »

Rabbidfan236 wrote:No, but then again I wouldn't feel intimidated in a room full of men either.

...I'm not sure if that helps my argument.
xD. It helps mine.

I'm just trying to give an example of why make entitlement is actually a problem, not just a silly one-time thing :) .
User avatar
Rabbidfan236
Well-Known Member
Posts: 1084
Joined: February 28th, 2013, 9:55 pm
Design Competitions Voted: 1

Post by Rabbidfan236 »

So what I don't understand is, would I be supporting or opposing the feminist movement if I said that women are weaklings compared to men and require special treatment in society? Because I sort of get mixed messages.
User avatar
totaldile
Member
Posts: 236
Joined: March 8th, 2013, 8:02 pm

Post by totaldile »

Rabbidfan236 wrote:So what I don't understand is, would I be supporting or opposing the feminist movement if I said that women are weaklings compared to men and require special treatment in society? Because I sort of get mixed messages.
I don't think specifically saying that puts you on either side! It's all about how you treat women :) .
I don't personally call myself a feminist simply because there are those feminists who go way too far, and I don't want to be associated with them.
However, the good side of the feminist movement, I believe, is that we're seeking acknowledgement that women are equal human beings to men, and whilst men may have a tendency towards more muscle mass and women towards more body fat than the opposite gender, that is a fundamental difference between men that in our society makes little to no difference unless we're discussing physical performance. Essentially, men and women are capable of thinking in equally innovative ways, and neither gender should be considered 'weaker' or inferior.
Essentially, we want to abolish as many gender conventions as we can in order to provide an equal society - who says the woman has to stay and home and look after the baby? Why not the husband?
Paternity leave for new parents is definitely something I support in terms of things women get but men don't.

Although, saying women are weaker implies inferiority and I don't think many feminists will agree with you :/.

Overall, feminism is very difficult to interpret as there are a lot of people who have different views, and there are lots of different reasons people call themselves feminists.
The only thing I think all feminists have in common is that they all seek for women to have the same rights as men do :) .
User avatar
DvChayz
Well-Known Member
Posts: 2922
Joined: December 14th, 2012, 11:11 pm

Post by DvChayz »

this is gold
User avatar
ElectroYoshi
Well-Known Member
Posts: 11061
Joined: October 18th, 2012, 8:27 pm
Design Competitions Voted: 1

Post by ElectroYoshi »

I can sort of understand this guy's frustration. Men are regarded as complete pigs in society, so a lot of times they just get blindly rejected. I don't care about sex in the slightest, and actually do everything I can to treat girls well, but even so, I have a terrible track record when it comes to dating (My last date was in 2012. Seriously). Being rejected by a girl hurts enough on its own, but if that girl rejected you after you were really nice and were always there, only to start dating some jerk who couldn't care less about her... That is really freaking frustrating. I get that. I've been there, and it's not an easy thing to get over.

But I still don't condone this Elliot Rodgers guy's actions. From my perspective of the incident, he just came off as conceited and jealous. Even if he wasn't thinking straight because of how mad he was (Which, to be honest, strikes me as a likely possibility), his girl-related frustrations do not justify killing and "punishing [them] all" for "not being attracted to him". It's more than a little sad that people are praising him for standing up for what he believes in without actually thinking about his killing spree. Believing in something does not justify punching one person, let alone killing a bunch of them. If you're that mad about being rejected all the time, you need to either get over it and move on or get counseling or something.

Everyone has the right to a romantic relationship, but no one has the right to force it.
I need a shot again, that sweet adrenaline.
User avatar
totaldile
Member
Posts: 236
Joined: March 8th, 2013, 8:02 pm

Post by totaldile »

ElectroYoshi wrote:I can sort of understand this guy's frustration. Men are regarded as complete pigs in society, so a lot of times they just get blindly rejected. I don't care about sex in the slightest, and actually do everything I can to treat girls well, but even so, I have a terrible track record when it comes to dating (My last date was in 2012. Seriously). Being rejected by a girl hurts enough on its own, but if that girl rejected you after you were really nice and were always there, only to start dating some jerk who couldn't care less about her... That is really freaking frustrating. I get that. I've been there, and it's not an easy thing to get over.

But I still don't condone this Elliot Rodgers guy's actions. From my perspective of the incident, he just came off as conceited and jealous. Even if he wasn't thinking straight because of how mad he was (Which, to be honest, strikes me as a likely possibility), his girl-related frustrations do not justify killing and "punishing [them] all" for "not being attracted to him". It's more than a little sad that people are praising him for standing up for what he believes in without actually thinking about his killing spree. Believing in something does not justify punching one person, let alone killing a bunch of them. If you're that mad about being rejected all the time, you need to either get over it and move on or get counseling or something.

Everyone has the right to a romantic relationship, but no one has the right to force it.
I can definitely see your point of view, but I don't quite agree with your last statement. Saying we have the right to a romantic relationship is kind of like saying we have the right to have sex. I disagree.

Did you mean to say we have the right to seek a romantic relationship?

Also, @DvChayz, if you wanna specify exactly what is gold and why that'd be awesome tyvm
User avatar
DvChayz
Well-Known Member
Posts: 2922
Joined: December 14th, 2012, 11:11 pm

Post by DvChayz »

sorry i would point it out but typing a paragraph on a phone is difficult
User avatar
totaldile
Member
Posts: 236
Joined: March 8th, 2013, 8:02 pm

Post by totaldile »

DvChayz wrote:sorry i would point it out but typing a paragraph on a phone is difficult
Fair enough :/
When you can, then.
User avatar
ElectroYoshi
Well-Known Member
Posts: 11061
Joined: October 18th, 2012, 8:27 pm
Design Competitions Voted: 1

Post by ElectroYoshi »

totaldile wrote:I can definitely see your point of view, but I don't quite agree with your last statement. Saying we have the right to a romantic relationship is kind of like saying we have the right to have sex. I disagree.

Did you mean to say we have the right to seek a romantic relationship?
Well, I do think we have the right to seek a romantic relationship. However, when I said that, I meant it more in the sense that society doesn't have the right to deny you one. Obviously, the other person has the right to turn you down if they just don't feel anything for you, but if they feel that way, it should be for their own reasons, not because of societal stereotypes.
I need a shot again, that sweet adrenaline.
User avatar
totaldile
Member
Posts: 236
Joined: March 8th, 2013, 8:02 pm

Post by totaldile »

ElectroYoshi wrote:Well, I do think we have the right to seek a romantic relationship. However, when I said that, I meant it more in the sense that society doesn't have the right to deny you one. Obviously, the other person has the right to turn you down if they just don't feel anything for you, but if they feel that way, it should be for their own reasons, not because of societal stereotypes.
Societal stereotypes? Can you expand on this?
User avatar
ElectroYoshi
Well-Known Member
Posts: 11061
Joined: October 18th, 2012, 8:27 pm
Design Competitions Voted: 1

Post by ElectroYoshi »

totaldile wrote:Societal stereotypes? Can you expand on this?
Men being sex-crazed, selfish pigs basically. The connection I'm making here is that men get turned down a lot because of that stereotype, which is kind of silly. Again, you can't force a relationship with that one guy you know, you're not "entitled" to a relationship with that cute girl in history class, but you don't necessarily deserve to be shot down just because of that generalization either. At the very least the person should have their own reasons.
I need a shot again, that sweet adrenaline.
User avatar
totaldile
Member
Posts: 236
Joined: March 8th, 2013, 8:02 pm

Post by totaldile »

ElectroYoshi wrote:Men being sex-crazed, selfish pigs basically. The connection I'm making here is that men get turned down a lot because of that stereotype, which is kind of silly. Again, you can't force a relationship with that one guy you know, you're not "entitled" to a relationship with that cute girl in history class, but you don't necessarily deserve to be shot down just because of that generalization either. At the very least the person should have their own reasons.
I don't quite agree!
I think either side has the right to deny a relationship with the other party for whichever reasons they wish.
I do agree the stereotype is unfair, but it didn't pop up out of nowhere. Women don't hate men, and we didn't make up that stereotype to stop other women from dating you. Women may have played a part in helping propagate this stereotype, but it fundamentally was caused by the actions of other men.
Trust me, I know it sucks to have other people have misconceptions of you (being an anime-watcher leads my friends to make certain assumptions...).

However, because people such as Elliott Rodger exist, you have to prove to us you're not like him before a lot of women will be willing to date you.
User avatar
ElectroYoshi
Well-Known Member
Posts: 11061
Joined: October 18th, 2012, 8:27 pm
Design Competitions Voted: 1

Post by ElectroYoshi »

totaldile wrote:However, because people such as Elliott Rodger exist, you have to prove to us you're not like him before a lot of women will be willing to date you.

Well, that's the thing: Largely because people like him exist, a lot of times one person rejects the other out of paranoia, rather than just genuinely not liking the person. I guess that's what I mean.

Also, yes, you do need to prove you're not like that. If you are genuinely like that, then yes, you do deserve to get shot down because of that one stereotype (That's why I said you "don't necessarily" deserve it earlier).
I need a shot again, that sweet adrenaline.
User avatar
totaldile
Member
Posts: 236
Joined: March 8th, 2013, 8:02 pm

Post by totaldile »

ElectroYoshi wrote:Well, that's the thing: Largely because people like him exist, a lot of times one person rejects the other out of paranoia, rather than just genuinely not liking the person. I guess that's what I mean.

Also, yes, you do need to prove you're not like that. If you are genuinely like that, then yes, you do deserve to get shot down because of that one stereotype (That's why I said you "don't necessarily" deserve it earlier).
Thing is, whilst I agree it's unfair for genuine men, it'd be even more unfair if the women were forced into it.
I'll use my cookie analogy again: I bake a hundred cookies but I put cyanide in one, and I don't tell you which. Are you still going to take a cookie, even if my feelings are hurt?
User avatar
papaya
Member
Posts: 938
Joined: October 9th, 2012, 3:03 pm
Design Competitions Voted: 1

Post by papaya »

totaldile wrote: However, because people such as Elliott Rodger exist, you have to prove to us you're not like him before a lot of women will be willing to date you.

who would want to date a sjw anyway

Your cookie analogy is implying that at least 1 in every 100 men are crazy enough to kill people because they won't get sex. That's simply not true, and you know it. Yes, there are a few people that have, this guy being one of them. This will not drastically change the stereotype of men to the point where we now have to demonstrate that we have no intention of killing you in order to sleep with you.

elliot rodgers is not representative of the entire male populous. He was deranged, clearly had underlying issues and was spoilt to the point where he chose this course of action. Do not use this tragic incident to further push your 'all men are pigs until proven otherwise' agenda.
User avatar
papaya
Member
Posts: 938
Joined: October 9th, 2012, 3:03 pm
Design Competitions Voted: 1

Post by papaya »

ElectroYoshi wrote:Well, that's the thing: Largely because people like him exist, a lot of times one person rejects the other out of paranoia, rather than just genuinely not liking the person. I guess that's what I mean.

Also, yes, you do need to prove you're not like that.
tell me truthfully, how many boys do you know that would go as far as killing 6 people because some women didn't want to have sex with them? The answer is definitely zero.
Similarly, how many people do you know (that aren't weirdo feminist tumblr users) who would reject a man based on the fact that he has a willy, and that fact alone? The answer is none who are worth speaking to.

men should not, and typically do not have to prove we aren't psycho- or sociopaths. The vast majority aren't.
User avatar
totaldile
Member
Posts: 236
Joined: March 8th, 2013, 8:02 pm

Post by totaldile »

@Papaya
Alright, let's change the figure to a million. A million cookies, and one is cyanide. Still wanna try one?
And by 'a few' do you mean, like six I could find easily on a Google search in five minutes, plus whichever other ones I could dig up if I had the time and resources? Also, let's just ignore all those men on the 'MRA' websites, shall we? Let's just ignore all those YouTube comments and other commentary supporting Elliott Rodgers, because their opinions aren't scary and exactly what Elliot Rodgers was saying at all, are they? Yeah, let's ignore all of them.

As for, 'he was deranged'? Uh, no. There's no scientific evidence to say he was deranged. If you're implying he committed the crime because he was mentally ill, please explain to me how there are a significant number of mentally ill people in the world today who have not murdered six people :l. It's kind of ableist to imply that mental illness = murder. I won't deny mental illness is often a factor, but I refuse to pin all the blame on mental illness, as that would be pretty much the same as saying my friend Kirsty is going to murder somebody because she's autistic :l.

And, as I've stated before, I'm not implying nor stating that all men are pigs. Please try and read my posts carefully, okay :) ? I'd be disappointed if you got the wrong impression because you were too hasty to defend yourself.

No, I do not believe all men are pigs until proven otherwise. What I do believe?
'All men are dangerous until proven otherwise.'

Just like I believe 'All dogs are dangerous until proven otherwise.'
I apologize for comparing males to dogs - I mean no offence by comparing you to a non-sentient species, nor do I mean to demean your intelligence in any which way. The only aspect of dogs and men I am trying to compare is how dangerous you are until proven otherwise.

As for your last statement, 'Men should not have to prove we aren't psychopaths,'
Well, yeah, that's true. Unfortunately, things don't always work out the way they should.
Like, y'know, those six people getting murdered really shouldn't have been.
But they were.

I really do wish for a world where I can walk alone at 10pm at night, and not fear getting assaulted. I really do wish for a world where I could reject a man by simply saying 'I don't find you attractive,' instead of fearing his reaction and instead saying 'I have a boyfriend.'

And, I agree. The vast majority of you aren't.
Let me return again to the cookie analogy. A million cookies. One is cyanide. Unless you enjoy risking your life, I doubt you'll take the cookie unless you know it's not cyanide.

Let me apologize for hurting your feelings simply because I don't want to risk dying.

EDIT: Oh, let me just chuck in some more statistics.
'According to the most recent statistics, for homicides in which the victim-killer relationship was known, 31 percent of female victims were killed by an intimate partner. Only 4 percent of male victims were killed by an intimate partner.

According to Bureau of Justice statistics, a 1992 survey of women killed showed that their relationship to the killer was known in 69 percent of homicides. Of that percentage, 28 percent were killed by spouse, ex-spouse, boyfriend or ex-boyfriend. That same study showed that of men killed in 1992, their relationship to the killer was known in 59 percent of homicides. Of that percentage, 3 percent were killed by spouse, ex-spouse, girlfriend or ex-girlfriend.'
From here:
http://www.divorcesupport.com/divorce/W ... -3336.html
Post Reply